Saint Augustine’s Music: Chloe Williams and Andy Campbell

Chloe Williams and Andy Campbell are members of Saint Augustine’s Music, a collective of songwriters, musicians, theologians, and creatives based in Auckland. Here they talk about collaborative process, about God’s work in and through their music, and about their latest EP Death Is Not The End. You can find the music on Spotify and Apple music, along with some visually stunning lyric videos on YouTube—Ed.

It’s great to get the time with you both—thank you. I’d love to begin by hearing more about Saint Augustine’s music. Tell us about where it’s from, who you guys are, and how it began.

Chloe: So, we are part of Saint Augustine’s Church, which is an Anglican church that meets in Auckland. We are basically a crew of song writers and worship leaders with a heart for the local Church. We’ve got people with more of a musical background, some with a bit more of the writing background, and we’ve got a theologian in the mix.  We have been writing for a while. Andy and I go back to when I was 21, when I joined St Paul’s [Symonds St] and quickly joined the worship team there. My husband Isaac, who’s also in the Saint Augustine’s music crew, is like best friends forever with Andy and with Chris Cope from Saint Paul’s, and they did a lot of writing together. We were part of Worship Central, which was writing with a whole bunch of people from different churches across New Zealand, Aotearoa. So the writing relationships actually go back a long time. My husband and I had been out of the country for five years, and we came back and got involved here at Saint Augustine’s. Then we just gathered and sought to intentionally write together again—and brought in a few new faces. Our first offering was throughout COVID. We didn’t actually plan to record—it didn’t feel overly strategic, eh.

Andy: Nah, it was literally: We’ve been in lockdown and apart; let’s get in the room and hit record. It was never actually to release an EP digitally—it was always to make some videos that we could use in our Sunday online gatherings.

Chloe: So, a happy byproduct was the fact that we suddenly had these songs that we loved. And so we thought: Oh, let’s kind of massage them a bit to get the quality up to a standard that we’re happy with. We engaged a producer friend in Brisbane, Brett Shaw, who we knew from Worship Central AU/NZ and he just brought them to life. That EP was called A Table, and it features the songs “You Are Good”, “As I am Still”, “To Be Like You”, and “Here and Now”.

Andy: We’re a collective of creatives really, trying to encourage each other in our own craft, as well as in the work we do together with songwriting and making music.

What’s your process? How do you work?

Chloe: Sometimes creative people need a deadline or some sort of reason to do something. In the case of the song “Evergreen”, we had a season of trying to memorize Psalm 1 as a church. And so, we just thought, Oh, let’s use this as opportunity to write something—that’s where that song came from. With the new song “Shalom”, we had a season of writing poetry together. There was a particular exercise centred on the theme of justice: we went off individually and then came back together—Andy came up with the initial idea for that song. So, there is often a seed of an idea to begin, and then we go to the group for feedback, and then either go back and work on our own again or we bring in more writers into the editing phase of the song. It’s this constant to and froing, I guess; but it is essentially Andy and I coming up with those beginning ideas.

Writers are notoriously precious about what they draft—and I wonder if it can be hard for a writer of worship songs to edit what they’ve come up with, partly because it’s threaded through with conviction, right? I’m interested, too, that you have a theologian in the mix. What’s the editing conversation like? How does that work?

Andy: I mean, we like to think about ourselves as theologians as well! Jon Hoskin is the person you’re referring to. He has been an absolute gift. He comes from an art-making background himself (poetry) and then has loaded into that whole lot of theological depth through his PhD. Many theologians are just out and out theologians: that’s their thing. So, to have someone like Jon who has a real appreciation for aesthetics and the experience—there’s a gift. Yeah, and he just asks the right questions, like: Is there more there? Or, Is that really saying what we need it to say? Sometimes they’re really annoying questions, because you’ve worked hard at something, and you’re like, Okay, this feels 99% for me. And he’s saying: We’re still at 60%!

If there was one word to sum up our process it’s: rewrite, rewrite, rewrite. And we have become more comfortable with that, I think. Every now and then a song will come—“Evergreen” came in kind of one hit, all very quickly. I’ve had one or two songs over my song writing journey that have come like that, where to rewrite feels more like tampering with it than enhancing it; there’s a purity that you don’t really want to mess with. But for the most part I think there’s a wisdom in being open to receiving feedback before you release it, particularly when you’re writing for the worship context, to put words in other people’s mouths.

Chloe: I’ve also noticed with writing worship songs particularly it makes you check your theology all of the time. You’re like: Do I really believe that? When you’re writing there’s that initial spark of an idea that feels really fresh; and then you just start to regurgitate all these things you’ve said a million times. And then that suddenly doesn’t feel fresh anymore, or reveals some weird theology that’s lurking in your subconscious! So I think it’s actually just really healthy to be writing with friends that you trust and that have a high, high value on good theology, because the stakes are so high. I mean, it doesn’t really matter what the streaming stats are; even if we’re only going to sing it in our context, the stakes are high.

Andy: Yeah, you’re forming people’s imaginations in that worship context. I think one of the things that Chloe brings as well, which is awesome, is a real desire and discipline to keep songs single-minded. It’s quite easy for the first verse to be single minded, but then you’ve got to write a second verse and it’s like, “Oh, I’ve exhausted my understanding of that idea—let’s just chuck in something a bit random but which kind of rhymes….” Having someone with fresh ears and fresh eyes on something is a real gift. You know, I live with a lot of my songs for a long time, and you do lose perspective. I need to bring it to the group to go: Am I just wasting my time here?

I think we’re often quite slow or resistant to learn that God is drawing us into work together. The process you’re describing sounds very Jesus: this incredible thing where you’re being shaped and humbled, and blessing is coming through you as you work together.

Andy: I get excited when I feel like there’s a seed of an idea, because I know now that there’s going to be a massive learning journey—here’s something that’s going to be worth paying the price for in terms of time and energy. It might just be a melody with a lyric that’s the first line of a chorus. But it’s exciting, because I know I’m going to have to do some reading around this idea, and because I don’t have the sum total to pull this off—I’m going to have to involve others. It’s a way that I grow and learn theologically in my own walk with God. You know, when you’re singing about resurrection, it’s like: Oh, man, that’s a big theme! It’s easy to sing about if you’re not really thinking about it—it sings well, preaches well. But resurrection has some massive ramifications that are exciting to explore and be confronted by.

Could we talk about a song with a big theme, the song “Shalom” from this new EP Death Is Not The End?

Andy: Well, as Chloe said, the seed for that idea was this poetry exercise during lockdown. There were about 12 of us; the goal was to write a poem each day and then at the end of the week to submit your favourite poem to a shared doc for people to comment on. Each week was a different theme. This particular week was the theme of justice. It was a song that I’d been half working on but hadn’t really known what to do with it. I thought: Oh, that does feel more poetic than the songs that I usually write. So, it turned into a poem for that exercise. I suppose that allowed a sense of freedom that wouldn’t normally have when writing for a congregation, you know, trying to show how I feel rather than tell people what I feel.

Also probably, at the time, there was a growing sense of disillusionment with the world, this place that we call home. We live very privatized lives that are at distance from much of the suffering; but even within that there’s a certain angst, a certain suffering that is hard to ignore your whole life. So, a lyric like “And the prophets weep” is not something I would normally sing on a Sunday. But weeping is a really valid and beautiful response to the world’s pain—being people who feel and share the heart of what God feels.

Chloe: As a songwriting process that was really positive Andy had come with this amazing idea. Isaac and I spent a bit of time on it; and then Mary and I at one point added the big “We cry shalom”. The first time we sang it was at the A Table EP release and, at the end, it was just a could-have-heard-a-pin-drop moment: the number of people who said to us, “There’s something in that song”. We knew we were articulating this cry for peace and for God to come. In the Christian faith we understand that God is continually renewing and restoring us. And so, what I love about the song, particularly the second half of the song, is this embodied hope—even though the lyrics are full on, particularly when we’re asking the question, How long? How long? When are you coming? When is this going to be better?

The goose-bump moment for me is always the first set of bridges, “water in a wasteland, peace upon our homeland. How long?” Musically, it’s stunning: it’s got all the gang vocals in that part, the stomps—it’s building. But I love the imagery, water in a wasteland, because that’s just an image of God making all things new and restoring our souls. And then it’s this huge ending “We cry shalom!”. Any good song is some sort of journey. And the message of Jesus is: There’s hope. That’s what I feel we’ve captured sonically as well lyrically.

Andy: The recording ended up sounding a lot more hopeful than the poem sounded—and I think that’s absolutely right: I’m so glad it has. One of the cool things about the song is there’s a level of honesty, not denying suffering, not ignoring it—there just aren’t many congregational songs that go there, sitting with that Good Friday feeling and not jumping straight to Resurrection Sunday.

Could we also talk about the new song “Job”? Chloe, I know that’s there’s quite a personal journey for you there.

Chloe: So, two years ago now I attended the Venn Vocational Programme. Early on in the teaching we were introduced to the wisdom literature, and we looked at Job through the framework of wonder. That just really captured my imagination, that whole teaching.

The first set of verses of the song use all this creation imagery, like in the book of Job [chapters 38-41]. This is kind the lens of God speaking: “Who formed the earth’s foundations?”, etc. And then it moves to Job’s response, which is: “I spoke of things I/did not understand/I’m unworthy//My ears have heard/but now my eyes see/Creation’s glory”, as if to say, Who am I to question you? And then it moves into a B section/C section which is this response of Job, “holy, holy, holy/worthy, worthy, worthy/You are magnificent”. And then we move into this D section. So it’s A, B, C, D—not a classic song structure at all, it’s like Bohemian Rhapsody, Christian version. The last part goes: “We delighted in all we don’t know / We know we’re not in control / Would you fill us with wonder/fill us with wonder.” That was like a personal response. I can’t control my life, but I trust you God, and I’m going to choose to see the beauty in creation and the beauty around me.

Andy: I love that lyric, “We delight in all we don’t know”. Like, you could unpack that for a long time. That’s just not the classic post-Enlightenment disposition, to be relaxed and happy and not knowing all the answers and not having it all packaged.

Facing into the mystery of who God is, yeah?

Chloe: Yeah; but then God’s still willing to have a conversation with us. That’s what I love about the book of Job: we can bring our full selves to God, and he’s willing to talk it out. I think that’s wonderful.

Andy: That we could actually know the Eternal One: we delight in all we don’t know—but we get know the one who knows! Actually, the song’s been picked up and used on the Pray As You Go app. So, that’s been a nice bit of feedback, that they would deem it suitable for their platform.

What does this latest EP Death Is Not The End represent in terms of your growth as artists?

Andy: Maybe the first thing to say on that is the growth and development of us as a collective. This is a different approach to what we did to for A Table, which was a live recording. This was the opportunity to do songs that don’t sit squarely in the congregational setting, and give them a different treatment by going into the studio and experimenting with sounds that we wouldn’t normally turn to. We were able to work with Nic Manders, who produced three of the songs on the EP, and he’s been a great gift—and New Zealand’s best producer: he’s literally just won the award this year. To have him become kind of the seventh member of the band for a few weeks and really help bring the songs sonically to life.

I think it’s been a development for us, because it’s moving a bit more into the devotional music space.  Not everyone loves listening to live worship (I’m having to accept that!); but this is to be enjoyed, you know, in your car and on the go. So it’s pushed us a bit and caused us to ask, Well, what is Saint Augustine’s music? We’re trying to learn to be a bit more comfortable with like, Oh well, let’s see what this project needs, what’s in us—being open to different approaches.

What about life with God as artists? What has God been up to in your lives personally through this process?

Chloe: I love that question. So, I do Chloe Williams music—Christian music—and then I do Coco Charles music, which is like alt pop. I felt called by God to back into music after, well, 10 years of disillusionment and disappointment that I haven’t created the kind of career that I wanted, that opportunities didn’t come. I felt on the outer, didn’t even really feel like an artist, to be honest, because I hadn’t received any external validation. The process I’ve been on in the last few years has been about letting God tell me who I am, and affirm that creativity and artistry in me.

Now I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that I’m meant to be a writer, and I don’t need anyone to tell me otherwise. Like, I know that is where I’m most alive: when I’m writing songs (to the point where I struggle just to engage in normal life because I’m so desperate to write). I’m trying to learn how to time-block creativity around my roles and responsibilities in terms of paid and unpaid work. It’s a real struggle. I feel like I’m writing in the margins; and I have snippets of ideas and voice memos and half-written songs, and horn parts I haven’t written, and and the list goes on—it’s this constant wrestle. But when I am writing, I feel most alive and like I’m exactly where I need to be, whether that’s writing my own music or contributing to Saint Augustine’s music. Even talking about music is energizing for me! And so, recording Death is Not the End was the best three weeks of my life, just to be with my friends, talking about music, writing music and recording it.

I’m writing in the margins of my life, but God is speaking to me the entire time. It’s like when you’re doing a talk and you’re constantly mulling over things: it doesn’t matter really what’s in front of you, whether it’s driving or, in Andy’s case, dishes—it’s just below the surface, something that you’re living and breathing and, in a way, working out with Jesus all of the time. I think it’s just a way of life.

Andy: That idea of death not being the end is really central in Scripture, central to what we believe. We see it in nature. You know, dawn dispels the darkness, every day; winter begets the spring. We see it in the caterpillar that literally forms its own tomb and wraps grave clothes around itself and then goes through a transformation into this thing of beauty. My experience has been that midlife (I have to admit, I’m now in midlife) is kind of series of mini- deaths: giving over autonomy as you enter into marriage or family life; no longer do you get to call all the shots. If you’re willing. For me, there’s been deaths of grandiose dreams, those things which get seeded young and, as you get older, you’re not quite sure what to do with. There’s a level of acceptance that you have to enter into if you’re to continue to move forward. That’s not what we had in mind when we wrote these songs, but that’s what’s sitting in the background for me when I’m singing a song like “Wonder”. There’s hope for me as I am confronted with some of the decisions that I need to make around vocation or, you know, preferring others when I would prefer my own way. That’s a little death that because of the reality of the resurrection can lead to life and beauty.

I have come to see that music and songwriting is a key way that I outwork my life with God and it’s been confirmed recently in terms of my roles: I was working as a worship pastor where I could build songwriting into the role—it was just part of what I did. Now that I’ve moved vocationally to focus on design, leading with that, what’s become aboundingly clear is that songwriting is there: it’s where my mind goes when I don’t have anything to do—when I’m doing the dishes, when I’m folding the clothes. In fact, when I’m really focussed on a new song idea, the number of dishes and folded clothes increases significantly! It must be a really annoying to live with.

What is a hope you have for this music?

Chloe: As much as we love creating music, it feels like the songs are such an opportunity for people who don’t have a faith to meet with Jesus. It feels quite evangelistic in a way, because you can quite comfortably share a song that you’ve recorded because it’s good art. It just may pique a bit of interest to go: Well, who is this person that they’re singing about? A lot of my family don’t have a faith background but they sing “Wonder” on the way to school every day. That is crazy for me, because the chorus is: “And the wonder of it all is you are Lord”. They don’t go to church, and they’re singing that on the way to school.

We’re kind of semi-famous at my son’s preschool. They sing “Wonder” at nap time, and they’ve asked my husband to come in and perform it live. One kid, like, taps me on the leg and says, “Golgotha”, because he’s obsessed with that word, Golgotha [which occurs in the song “Wonder”]. For me, that is a good reason to keep making music, if it reaches people who otherwise wouldn’t feel comfortable going to a church service on a Sunday morning. My husband teaches at St Kent’s; he just heard of a parent who plays “As I’m Still” every morning on the way to school because she has anxiety. I feel it’s worth it for that story alone.